Hi Simon,
I was beginning to wonder if the Ethics committee would ever get their act together. At last!
You must feel so relieved. I wouldn't worry too much about the 'currency' of your work because it will be examined for the development of your research methodology, and the contribution to knowledge, theory and or fact. Hence it is already an historical document, as well as a piece of research etc.
Have your examiners already been appointed? If they have already been appointed and approved then you should be able to get the process over and done with very quickly.
Congratulations Simon. It has been an enormous task to endure on top of completing an outstanding PhD and program of research and creativity. Despite RMIT HDC's attitude and actions, I still shudder to think how much worse it might have been if you had been enrolled somewhere else like Melbourne or Sydney.
Let's hope that this is the end of it so we can all get on with enjoying and benefiting from your extremely significant work. Well done and thanks.
Regards Les
Simon, sorry about the delays in my correspondence. Apart from normal pressure of work, I have been on leave, then off with the flue much of the past week.
I just wanted to add a couple of points in response to your message. You should not conclude from the comments that I sent you that your work is not up to international standard. From my observations, it is! You should remember that some people maintain their position by promoting their own work whilst denigrating others - and some criticise any work that is not perfect with a view to spurring students on to greater things - and they may not have expected me to pass on their comments directly to you. I did so because I think it was more useful to you, as it is better to know now what examiners might think of your work so that you can tailor it to clear the necessary hurdles. But you can't please all of the people all of the time!
I have checked some of FOD again and see that you have clearly identified the research questions and have provided outcomes:
Tangible outcomes include:
I think if I were you I would (as you suggested in your message) highlight these questions and answers and elaborate on the answers to the questions in a manner similar to the way in which it is done in "traditional" theses. As John has pointed out there three issues: FORM, CONTENT and CULTURE, and the culture or way of thinking about Ph.D. theses is not going to change overnight, so people such as yourself who are blazing new trails probably need to try to extend the culture gradually to accommodate the forms and content of the digital multi-media world.
Keep at it and good luck!
Regards, Keith
Simon,
I've checked the current `state of play' regarding your submission and offer the following observations/advice:
The library is waiting on an archival request from HDC. HDC is waiting on an archival request from Visual Communication. Neither the library nor Peter Johnston understands your need for a permanent (root URL), as it is assumed that your site will use relative addressing and that the library will only need to point to the CD-ROM for access to the archival copy.
Regards, Craig Paterson
Craig
We seem to be running into a general lack of will at the RMIT Library regarding my submission.
1. Before I can burn the CD-ROM or print the paper Research Report - (both of which are ready to go) I need a permanent [root URL] from the library so that the file structures can reflect the archived site rather than the live site. Otherwise my examiners will find themselves in the live site - which is quite different.
2. Please be aware of the compromises I am making by agreeing to put my work on to CD-ROM as a temporary storage vehicle. It means that scripted areas of my research have to be left out because they are designed to run on-line from a server not from a CD-ROM.
3. I am running out of semester time. I do not want to have to re-enroll yet again. Already the currency of my research has been severely eroded by the University's lack of understanding of how to manage these issues (RMIT HREC). It has been nearly 7 months since I thought I was going to be examined and most of my research was carried out in 1996. Soon it will be so out of date as to be worthless.
4. Now the Library is saying it has no policy directive from the HDC and so it cannot act. This makes me furious. I have been raising these issues with Peter Johnston and the HDC now for 3 years. Why won't you listen?
5. Did you manage to look at any of the papers I referred you to?
Regards Simon Pockley
I think there are three key issues involved:
FORM, CONTENT, CULTURE:
FORM:
The format, requirements, protocols in which the works can be presented for examination (how do we deal with time-based, interactive multimedia as distinct from print).
CONTENT:
The qualitative issues of scholarship etc. This is the function and role of the examiners.
A problem exists if/when the requirements of FORM (the double spaced typewritten text) imposes its own constraints, impositions, and prejudices upon the objectivity of the examination process. eg (Musical Composition).
CULTURE:
The culture of the Masters/PhD shows a decided list towards the heritage of the Sciences and the forms suited to these disciplines.....how well does this paradigm fit the Arts ?
Best wishes, John (birdy@rmit.edu.au).
Keith,
I think you should contact Alison Robinson in Research Degrees and ask her. She would have the best overview of OU practice. I haven't heard of anything innovative going through in the IT field in the OU. I did hear of someone at OISE in Toronto preparing his thesis on the Web. Maybe it was only a Masters come to think of it. Sorry I have no further ideas on this. I think they should continue to fight for it and to try to establish precedence. But I don't know of anything helpful in the OU context.
Robin
-------------------------------------
I'm certainly not opposed to innovative submission styles (I can remember when the REQUIREMENT was for 'typewritten pages' of a particular spacing etc, which we always used to ignore because it was self-evidently an absurd requirement), so someone has to take a bold step forward. I wish him luck... all I can say is
a) to break such new ground one had better be goddamn good
b) my lightning perusal of the Flight of Ducks website suggests that this is more of Masters Thesis than a PhD; admittedly only a quick perusal, but to be PhD-worthy in my circles, it has to have a thesis (in the old sense), i.e. be putting forward some idea and backing it up. The medium itself ain't new, especially now. Interesting? Yes! PhD-worthy... dunno. It looked to me like a high-tech scrapbook. Well done, yes, but not the best I've seen. This isn't to say he hasn't done a lot of work... indeed, I like the idea, since I've been doing something similar with a website concerning my own family's history (emigration from Russia at the turn of the century, etc.)... but for me and numerous others I've seen doing this, it's a HOBBY, not a PhD! Therefore, I repeat:
c) to break such new ground one had better be goddamn good
Maybe my casual perusal is unfair... after all, he's not asking me to be an examiner... but I'd be careful, that's all. My inability to find out what the basic new idea *ACTUALLY WAS*, after N minutes, was enough to turn me off. Maybe it's there, and just needs to be more up front. When examining a thesis, I usually read the 'Conclusions' chapter first, to see what the hell the person thinks they're actually contributing. I couldn't find anything even remotely like a claim or contribution. As a 'performance' or 'creation', I suppose different criteria apply... it's not my specialty to judge the PhD worthiness of a performance, so I'll have to leave that to others.
Summing up: innovative submissions are a neat idea. I can't pre-judge the outcome, however, and as a supervisor I would only tread such new ground with ultra-hot stuff up my sleeve. Hope that helps.
-Marc
-------------------------------------------
Keith - So far at KMi we have stuck to the traditional bound copies with software being described in the text with screen dumps and parts of the code being included as appendices. Not very innovative I'm afraid.... I have forwarded your message to Stuart Watt, our studentship coordinator, in case he has anything to add.
regards, Tamara
--------------------------------------------
Hi Keith,
We also accept for submission CD-ROMS (and perhaps surprising, floppy disks), and a variety of magnetic media, such as videos. The emphasis is on archivability, I believe -- media are required to be durable. Web sites would certainly be a problem here for their lack of durability. As I understand it, HTML would not be a problem if distributed on CD-ROM, but the Internet itself would not be sufficiently durable for submission. For these reasons, software formats are more or less acceptable, hardware formats do need to be chosen with care.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Stuart
---------------------------------------------
Hope these are of some assistance, Simon. My inclination would be that you should prepare a consise, printed thesis which specifies the new ground being broken in your work, so that it can be seen to meet the usual criteria for a PhD. (I cant see why this thesis couldnt be a text component of the WWW site, though, instead of the usual black binding with gold letters). I think it probably should define research questions that are resolved by your work, etc., unless you hope to completely redefine the nature of a PhD (which could be rather difficult). Hope you manage to sort it out!
With best wishes, Keith (K.J.Anderson@open.ac.uk)
Simon,
Thanks for the links. I'm enjoying your "ducks" so much--every aspect that I've seen so far.
I've just put in writing our ETD archiving policies and welcomed
the opportunity to cite both you and Maggie Exon. It's at
http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/archive.html
I hope that by now you've heard from John Eaton, in our Graduate
School (eaton@vt.edu).
Gail (gailmac@vt.edu).(1998 May 12). on-line exams
Ouch, turf battles are never fun. I got lucky--ALL I had to do was convince a school that they could accept ideas in a new format. You have to convince:
IF this were a paper project, how would you have worked with the University Human Research Ethics Committee? Is there any way to back up, say here is the traditional procedure, here are the issues with hypertext (e.g.,wider exposure, changing materials), here are the reasons why the issues are not a concern for this project (e.g., permissions, documentation).
The other issue is, how long can you hold out? The ideal situation would be to force the issue--sooner or later someone has to put this material on line and sooner or later we have to change the way we communicate and publish. But the wave is already swelling, and you don't have to carry the load alone. If you are strapped personally (e.g., finances, reputation), then consider a compromise. (I finally had to put a good thick "intro" on paper and pretend to several members of the grad school that the disk was an "extra.") Note that this is NOT the best strategy when pursuing an academic career in the States (and probably elsewhere). When the grad school folks figured out that they had been "tricked," they were not pleased and had I been trying for an academic position, I would have been out of luck.
You have already made impressive inroads and I hope you continue the fight.
best, Deena
PS The navigation icons that confused me were primarily the donkey --it took me a while o catch on that this was forwards and backwards. Also, I did not get to the About the document nor to the list of contents for about 10 screens. This may just be an interface problem--could you link to those screens from the very first warning screen?
Deena
Many thanks for your kind message and suggestions. I had read your piece on the submission of your Masters thesis with a wry smile. Certainly after the meeting (on Friday 1st May) with the Higher Degrees Committee chairman I thought of you and realised that this is going to be yet a another long haul. But more on that later this week as it unwinds.
>I did not understand the controversy over film
http://www.duckdigital.net/FOD/FOD0781.html
The committee wants to feel as though it is in control and have now delayed the examination of my project by 5 months in order to assert its authority. They have also called for `The Flight of Ducks' to be dismantled while they make up their mind what to do. This is very painful for me as you can imagine - but I don't count.
>If you come up with any solutions on the way to handle non-responses, please let me know. What I do is leave an email trail by sending repeated (dated) messages asking why there is no response. You will find examples of these in (Oct 27, 1997)
http://www.duckdigital.net/FOD/FOD0780.html
When you correspond, you might explain that their material may end up on your website. There is a warning at the beginning of the `talk' screens. The issue of what to do with private and confidential messages is explored in
http://www.duckdigital.net/FOD/FOD0258.html
and also at the end of section 7 of my paper on digital preservation `Killing th Duck to Keep the Quack':
http://www.duckdigital.net/FOD/FOD0055.html#med
>While the icons are beautiful, they are baffling to the reader who is trying to get through the material. A common link structure to main elements would greatly aid navigation. Hmmm...this has me worried, I thought I had a common link structure. explained in the `about' screens under `navigation' - but obviously this is not working. What, in particular, did you find baffling ?
>why does the interpretation of the churingas link on http://www.duckdigital.net/FOD/FOD0647.html go to the warning? Because in Australia even a drawing of churunga is regarded as dangerous because of the `power' residing in it. Very new age - Carlos Castaneda stuff. You may not believe this but a director of one of Australia's major museums claims he was run over by a car because he saw one of these objects. I have to be careful of litigation and of course accusations of ethical impropriety.
>Put ALL correspondance from the school in the web, just as you have for the material itself. This will help keep everyone honest and on their best behavior. They are on to me now and most of the University's correspondence is marked private and confidential.
>You may need to address others (e.g., permanence of the material --who can read it 50 years from now) This has been a digital preservation project. See `Killing the Duck to Keep the Quack'
http://www.duckdigital.net/FOD/FOD0055.html
>I applaud your efforts and wish you the best of luck. Deena, this means a great deal to me - Sometimes I feel so battered over all this that I get very despondent. I guess you've been through it all when it was even harder. I will put your message on-line - huge backlog at the moment as someone just sent me about 30 photographs of trains.
Sorry about this long email - ever onwards - I'll let you know when things move forward. Thanks for your time.
Regards
Simon Pockley
I have been looking at your project and it is a fascinating, haunting lyric. I wanted to shout, YES! this is what should be done with images from our past.
(I did not understand the controversy over film---possibly it is similar to the discussions in the US over Native American Trust responsibilities. This explanation would help your international visitors.)
I did like the way you put all the messages on line. Be as open as possible (I work for the US government as a decision process facilitator (http://www.usbr.gov/Decision-Process) and we advocate approaching agencies in the way you have. (If you come up with any solutions on the way to handle non-responses, please let me know. I would really love to put that advice in our guidebook.)
When you correspond, you might explain that their material may end up on your website. I'm not sure if Australia has an equivalent to our Freedom of Information Act (a citizen can request any document from the government and the government must provide it or explain why it is confidential. If so, posting e-mail messages from the govt should not be a problem.
Some hypertext asides:
I like the concept of a hypertext spine. This works well when you figure out the system.
While the icons are beautiful, they are baffling to the reader who is trying to get through the material. A common link structure to main elements would greatly aid navigation.
Some links may be non-intuitive (why does the interpretation of the churingas link on http://www.duckdigital.net/FOD/FOD0647.html go to the warning?). Check your rationale for this and determine if this rationale is strong enough to counterbalance the confusion on the reader's part.
Your original question was whether I had any insights into publishing a thesis in this medium. A couple of suggestions:
You are way ahead of the curve in putting the material in the National Library. Keep hammering about the documentation of the stages in this living document's history.
This project will help force issues for all communication, publication, and academic traditions. We cannot afford to continue with the old paradigms and must find new ones. I applaud your efforts and wish you the best of luck.
Deena
P.S. You can quote this.
Deena Larsen (textra@ix.netcom.com)
Hello, Simon,
I don't mind email. I would be happy to share with you what I know, but my situation is slightly different from yours. I am not working online. My dissertation is electronic, but it will be on CD-ROM. I made this decision because I am using a lot of sound files that take too long to download and also because the executors of the poet's estate did not want to release the rights to some of the material if there was a chance it would be on the internet. I have considered putting it on a closed network at school, but I want it to be portable so I can send it to people outside the university. I also want it to be a cross-platform program.
As far as our administration is concerned, we are still working out how I will deposit my dissertation, as the school requires a copy, but the library doesn't like cd-roms (yet). We shall see.
I presume you got my email address from the internet; did you get it from the Virginia site? If not, that is an important site you should check out. Matt Kirschenbaum administers it. He is quite brilliant in this area. The site lists all electronic dissertations. Matt is up on what is going on in all aspects and is very generous with his knowledge.
The url is:
http://www.iath.virginia.edu/readings/elecpublish.html
Matt's email address is:
I will look at your site when I log off here. It is always nice to hear
about people doing interesting work in electronics. I'll send you another
message when I've seen your site.
Best wishes,
Patricia
Gail
Many thanks for your prompt reply.
I have prepared a quick draft protocol for on-line examination (just to have
something to talk around) at:
http://www.duckdigital.net/FOD/FOD0838.html
I quote your paper and Virgina Tech's experience extensively in this - probably
all `old hat' to you but I had to start somewhere.
The logistics of the actual examination seem easy:
cut off time - mirror sites - panel - email questions - evaluations
Amendments to the Higher Degrees Guidelines (which are based on paper
submissions) are more complicated because not all universities are as forward
thinking as Virginia Tech.
I look forward to hearing from someone at Virginia Tech soon. Would you like me
to keep you posted?
Regards
Simon Pockley
Simon,
What an unusual and wonderful work! I would like to spend the day
reading it (even on screen!) but work calls. I don't think I can help you,
but I've begun to forward your query, starting with the Dean of the
Graduate School, John Eaton (eaton@vt.edu).
I think that you are seeking information about how ETDs are
evaluated but that is up to each graduate student's committee. As a result,
it varies remarkably from committee to committee. John will know more about
this, I'm sure.
I also suggested to John that perhaps this is something that might
be forwarded to Bob Bates, Dean of the College of Arts & Science, or to
others in that college.
If you don't hear from John, let me know. I will continue to pursue
other avenues here. It is a topic that will be of interest to many others,
not just at Virginia Tech but at all the other universities considering
ETDs.
Best of luck to you.
Gail (gailmac@vt.edu)
Gail
Please forgive this cold email.
I am a PhD student in Australia currently writing protocols
for on-line examination of my on-line work so that the University
Higher Degrees Committee can feel comfortable.
In front of me is your excellent paper ETDs - Merging perspectives Nov
10 1995. It seems a shame to have to re-invent all the work you have
obviously been doing since this was written.
I was wondering if you could point me to any mature protocols or
guidelines for the examination of on-line theses/projects?
My own Ph.D. research project was built entirely on-line and is a
practical demonstration of Digital Preservation and Restricted Access.
It was the first Australian evolving on-line work to be formally
archived by the National Library of Australia. They now take regular
snapshots of the site. See:
http://www.nla.gov.au/nla/pandora/flight.html
I believe my examiners are in the U.S.A (as well as in Australia). I have
arranged for a mirror site to run out of Bennington College and am in
the middle of writing detailed instructions and procedures for everyone
concerned - including the University Library.
Are you aware of other on-line examinations - problems etc.?
It is clear to me that the advent of the e-thesis is really the advent
of a whole new way of conducting and managing scholarship and that new
more dynamic forms of academic writing are emerging.
They are all, cans of worms when it comes to administration, I'm afraid.
I apologise for taking up your valuable time with these questions.
Regards
Simon Pockley
University of RMIT
Hello Simon
Thank you for the latest information. You seem to be getting somewhere
externally, if not within RMIT.
At the last Academic Board meeting Prof David Mainwaring spoke to
some issues relating to Higher Degrees and I took the opportunity to
speak to him aftewards about your situation. I indicated the
Libraries' willingness to be involved in discussions and to find a
solution to the archiving of online theses. This means that the regulations
would require modification and I understand that he is investigating
this aspect. I hope that you hear something soon.
With regard to how RMIT can integrate the online version within its
collection, I believe that there are options emerging to cover this. Our
Systems staff are currently focussed on providing networked access
to our CDROM databases by the start of the 1998 academic year and
this will be within a structure (using our home page as the front
end) which also points to a range of full text resources. Theses could
be included within this range.
With thanks
Ainslie Dewe
University Libararian
RMIT
Ainslie
In July 1996 The National Library of Australia chose my PhD project `The Flight
of Ducks' as a pilot for their PANDORA digital preservation project. Two days
ago the Archive went on-line.
http://www.nla.gov.au/nla/pandora/flight.htm
If you type `The Flight of Ducks' into their catalogue search you will see how
it is described.
This is a major achievement. When I began this work in 1995, there were few
people asking the difficult questions about how we archive material of this
nature. I am not sure how public this URL is yet because there are still a few
details that need attention and the site has changed considerably since their
last capture, but I'm sure you will be interested (the NLA have said I can sent
it to you).
The next question about `The Flight of Ducks' (which has little to do with
technology) is how can Cinemedia and RMIT integrate access to the NLA archive
of `The Flight of Ducks' with their own collections and visa versa?
This is a question which throws up all sorts of interesting side issues. But
just think of the possibilities!
Hope to hear your thoughts on this soon.
Regards
Simon Pockley
Robin
I am not sure if you are aware that I seem to be caught in an empty space
regarding the submission of my Web site `The Flight of Ducks' as a PhD by
project/report.
In these convergent times there are a number of people/places needing to be
brought together so that the infrastructure required to support my submission
begins to evolve. I was hoping you might be able to help to pull things
together
better than I have.
Brief history:
John Bird's original concept was to have Cinemedia act as the exhbition and
distribution agent for AIM student works.
They are a formally registered State Library with recognised expertise in
time-based media (someting which most University libraries don't have).
At an early stage in 1995 when the Masters/PhD commenced he discused with
the Head of the RMIT library the concept of the two libraries working
closely together.
In this relationship the AIM Masters/PhD works would have been registered
in the RMIT library (the formal lodgement process) but placed within the
Cinemedia Library for access.
At the end of October 1996 RMIT was without a head librarian. Monica Marshall
(RMIT library) suggested Ruth Dunkin would be the person to speak to regarding
the development of a policy which would allow the library to handle on-line
work. I also raised the matter with the then chairman of the HDC Peter Hoffmann
who passed it on to Peter Johnston. He said that he recognised the problem but
had no budget.
In August I met with the new head librarian Ainslie Dewe who replied later:
>I discussed the issue with other senior Libraries staff and the feeling
The Austalian National Library has been using `The Flight of Ducks' as a pilot
project for their PANDORA digital preservation project. They have developed an
understanding of the issues which, of course, have more to do with people than
with technology. I have now proposed to Cinemedia through Multimedia 21 that
they draw on the National Library's experience and policy and create an
infrastructure which can accommodate digital work of this nature.
We have all the pieces of the puzzle but it needs someone of your influence and
understanding to pull it together.
Can you help ?
Regards
Simon Pockley
Hello Simon
Thank you for following up on this request. After meeting you, I
discussed the issue with other senior Libraries staff and the feeling
was that we would be receptive to the idea of online theses but the
approval for a change has to come from the Higher Degrees Committee.
I recall that you had not got very far with them but you may have made
more progress since then.
I also discussed the idea with Sandra Oxley, the Director of RMIT
Publishing and she was interested in the options for providing a
service for managing online theses. You may wish to follow this up
with her.
I will look to hearing if you have received approval to present an
online version of your thesis. We can than investigate the
requirements for deposit and access. I apologise for taking so long
to reply.
With thanks
Ainslie Dewe
University Libararian
RMIT
Peter
>1. Would the HDC approve a web site ?
It cannot. It is purely a committee. It has no independent resources
or budget.
>The best answers are the University Librarian and (perhaps) Computer Centre
manager.
No Librarian yet & Computer Centre Manager a blamk.
This is interesting, is it?
Regards
Simon Pockley
Simon,
Thanks for the mail.
>it must be copyable
A web site (as a proliferating medium) is infinitely copyable.
1. Would the HDC approve a web site ?
>
2. Have you got any suggestions about how I might go about pursuing these
issues with RMIT? Do you know who might be involved in the development of a
strategic I.T. policy for RMIT?
Monica Marshall (at the library) is really the only person who has a digital
awarness. She suggested I try Ruth Dunkin. Ruth Dunkin, while aware that these
are pressing issues, doesn't seem to want to discuss the problem.
I suspect that instead of showing the way (as it should) RMIT is waiting to see
what other Universities do.
Peter
Peter
>it must be copyable
A web site (as a proliferating medium) is infinitely copyable.
1. Would the HDC approve a web site ?
2. Have you got any suggestions about how I might go about pursuing these
issues with RMIT? Do you know who might be involved in the development of a
strategic I.T. policy for RMIT?
Monica Marshall (at the library) is really the only person who has a digital
awarness. She suggested I try Ruth Dunkin. Ruth Dunkin, while aware that these
are pressing issues, doesn't seem to want to discuss the problem.
I suspect that instead of showing the way (as it should) RMIT is waiting to see
what other Universities do.
Regards
Simon Pockley
Simon,
>
What happens to my work when I cease to be a student?
>
What is the current conception by the HDC of a durable visual record ?
it must be copyable, it may take the form of
"photographs, slides, holographs, sound and vision recordings, etc.
and approved by HoD"
Peter
Simon,
Thanks for the mail.
I read 'Lest We Forget' and found it very interesting.
I don't know quite what to do about it. Solutions to the problem are
thin on the ground and I am sure that HDC, while interested, has no
resources to pursue the matter. I suspect the appropriate area to
pursue the matter is the Library or through further academic
research. I recommend you contact the new
Univerity Librarian when appointed.
Peter
Simon,
I'm afraid I'm going to look blank too in terms of specific answers.
However, I recognise the immediacy of the issues and will seek assistance in
relation to them.
Ruth
Ruth Dunkin
Yesterday I was speaking to Monica Marshall at the RMIT library. She suggested
I
contact you.
I am a PhD student at RMIT in interactive multimedia, over the last 14
months I have been building a large archival web site called 'The Flight
of Ducks'. Last week it won awards for Austrlia's best on-line production and
the Premier's Gold award for the best Australian Multimedia product.
`The Flight of Ducks' is about a camel expedition into central Australia
in 1933. It is also concerned with digital preservation, and in particular
with
its own preservation. This is fully articulated in my paper 'Lest We Forget'
at:
http://minyos.its.rmit.edu.au/~pockley/spockley55.html
The National Library regard the site as a self referential pilot project
which is helping to clarify many of the difficult questions. Melbourne
University are making similar moves.
Now, as you are no doubt aware, RMIT is yet to develop a strategic IT
policy with which to address the pressing issues inherent in the digital
presentation of research outcomes and student work. When I raise these issues
with the HDC, indeed with the library, people (apart from Monica) simply look
blank.
You are obviously aware of these issues. May I talk to you about them ?
Regards
Simon Pockley
Melbourne, Australia
was that we would be receptive to the idea of online theses but the
approval for a change has to come from the Higher Degrees Committee.
I recall that you had not got very far with them but you may have made
more progress since then.
Answer: At this stage - it will be deleted from Minyos.