Margaret
Many thanks for your most comprehensive and thoughtful answers. You have spent
a great deal of time on this. Here are some more questions and thoughts but
there is no hurry to reply. I will try to keep them brief.
Such a simple question can have many answers. I keep finding that people refer
to old media in a digital form as digital media. Which I guess it is, but where
does that leave digital media without an analogue backup? Maybe it is as you
say - a question of territory. (you don't need to answer)
Q1. ($ costs) What do you think about these figures?
The point about digital publications being large is what Julia Flanders
(Women's Writers Project) calls 'electronic copia'
see: http://www.wwp.brown.edu/NASSR/EdTheory.html#Heading3
or my paper 'The Uses of Text' section 8
http://www.duckdigital.net/FOD/FOD0259.html#universe
I've noticed that people (like me) are building contextual universes.
Ultimately one wonders where it will lead. Ted Nelson et. al. think all works
will eventually include each other. I think T.S. Eliot mentioned this in
relation to writing.
Q3. If you could ask each person reponsible for a digital work to do one thing
that would save you (the archivist) time/money what would it be? or how can I
(as a web author) help you archive the work/save money?
Spoke to Deborah about this. I believe this should be pushed out to the server
end where incremental upgrade of hardware is the norm and therefore all data
can move forward at once. It would certainly save a lot of work in copying data
onto soon to be redundant storage media. It passes the problem on to where it
should be. Where it can be incoporated into disaster and mirror strategies as
well.
Q4. It seems so clear to me. Do you think I am demonstrating an appalling
ignorance here? What am I missing?
Q5. Have you dealt with any needs for privledged access (password etc) ?
I have more questions to ask but do not want to take up your time now. So I'll
ask them later.
Re: AusWeb97: Regret can't go. I was invited to speak but cannot afford the
fare etc. It cost me more than I could afford to drive to Canberra for the
MetaData thing.
Thanks again Margaret - take your time. Look forward to hearing what you think
I should do with an image as metadata. At FOD0001.html there is a sonnet as
metadata.
Was/is the upgrade/activity list of any use to you ?
Q2. (cost) what is an automated system/manual?
Dear Jan
Ah - humiliated yet again. My apologies I am a great admirer of your work. 'The
Capturing The Rainbow Conference' was a most important event. I only wish that
I had been able to afford to attend. I had to be content with the proceedings
on-line.
In some ways my ignorance illustrates the coldness and distance of these sites
from human interaction. I think that is why I loath the term 'page' when
applied to the screen. For me the effectiveness of a web screen can be guaged
by one's ability to respond to anyone using it to communicate.
Unfortunately there is no mention of you (that I can find) on the 'Rainbow'
site nor is there any way of reaching you. The only email point invites me to
purchase a tape. The NLA itself is impenetrable. But I do apologise for not
knowing where you fitted in.
Thanks. This looks very interesting. There is so much information here it will
take me time to go through it.
How do you think live web sites should be treated ?
Not yet. But my experience so far with trying to raise issues concerning
digital preservation with people who should be interested is causing me to
become a little frustrated. At the same time it is giving me plenty to write
about. My prime objective re: 'The Flight of Ducks' as a work in a digital
medium has been to find a home for it where it will be safe. I have recently
moved the entire site into Cinemedia where I thought it might live.
Unfortunately The Cinemedia Digital Media Library does not contain any digital
media nor is there any intention to include digital media. It is in fact,
intented for old media (film) in a digitised form. Because there are analogue
sources there has been no thought at all about digital preservation.
Yet at the same time everyone hypes up digital media and screen culture etc
with very little understanding of what it is.
I guess my contribution to all this is to say that I think the proper place for
digital material is on-line - not on storage media. Issues of technological
obsolescence are then dealt with at the server level where upgrade is a regular
and incremental process and not complicated with all the difficulties
associated with separate works and media.
Of course closed works do not have the difficulties of ongoing upgrade that
open works do. If I drop dead tomorrow 'The Flight of Ducks' may close - on the
other hand it might not. I am trying to make it into a work beyond me. It might
find a new slave. It is profoundly interesting for me to see old versions but I
doubt if they have much importance beyond the scraps of draft we constantly
delete. Maybe everyone is being too precious about holding on these scraps ?
I wish I had a way of finding out who I should be talking to about all this in
the NLA. I had a conversation with Deborah Woodyard recently. Any clues ?
Of course you are right, I was just being emphatic. It looks like there are
references to papers on this in the link you sent me. RMIT University, where I
am doing a PhD, does not even have an IT policy. The Higher Degrees Committee
finds the issues attached to digtial scholarship - too hard. The Library has no
idea at all about digital media - no place for it and no intention of dealing
with the issues of the electronic submission of academic work.
Yep, this is where all the energy is going - This is why you may detect a
certain acidity in my voice. I just find I am fighting all the way and getting
nowhere.
Just a paper (http://www.duckdigital.net/FOD/FOD0259.html) I gave at INFOG 97
(great name):
Summary
Writing for the new medium of the World Wide Web involves the use
of different kinds of text. Paper based text has a long literary
context upon which electronic text can draw. Both have different
conventions. 'The Flight of Ducks' is anchored in these
conventions. It takes the textual form of a journey through a
landscape and turns it into a contextual universe where hypertext
paths are taken through a datascape. These paths are stories.
Narratives that may dip into their paper bound origins or
plunge into the poetics of the screen space. They
are shimmering pixilated displays where image and text are
inseparable and anyone can participate.
Well, I should not take up too much of your time. I do apologise again.
Regards Simon Pockley
Jan
>I would be interested to hear your comments on the PADI website
I need to know who I am talking to here. Have we met? Do I know you/of you ? What is your role re PADI ? - I have strong opinions about the use of this medium and I don't want to offend anyone. To me PADI is an impersonal place without any human presence. I don't get the sense that there is someone there. I like to talk to people - not machines. Where are you all? When I press the horrible word 'feedback' all I get is an email to 'niac@nla.gov.au' who is this niac ? Is it you ? Is it Deborah ? Is it Margaret ? Is it Wendy ? Are you afraid that someone might want to speak to you ? Perhaps you are too busy in the back shed killing ducks ?
>We have recently introduced a new development the 'What's happening?' page http://www.duckdigital.net/FOD/FOD0055.html
I don't understand. This URL seems familiar to me (my own out-of-date 'paper'). Is 'What's Happening?' the same as 'What's new' ? What is new?
>http://www.intext.com.au/intext.txb/rljpadi2/search.htm
When I tried this all my searches failed/zero. Maybe I was looking for the wrong things.
>I look forward to hearing from you.
Sorry, looks like I'm not much use here.
Between you and me. I have to say that I think the librarians and archivists are a gutless lot. This community will not leave their comfort zone and tackle the real issues.
To me these issues are about recognising that digital media is not old media in a digital form. We are all trying to get a better idea about how to use this medium. If anything is clear/certain/sure it is that work in this medium constantly evolves, is participatory and is beyond the reach of copyright (but not right of way).
It is useless to apply paper based techniques and descriptions to things which cannot be printed and which are not moving towards completion/closure.
I see 'The Flight of Ducks' as an open datascape through which anyone can travel and leave their trace or even overwrite the material. For this reason is is probably best described with imagery rather than text because images are more fluid. Datascapes like landscapes, erode, accrete, and move tectonically. Text based descriptions are like silt after a flood.
I think anyone seeking to preserve a feeling for the development of this kind of material should be asking:
How can non textual descriptions be used to describe non-document like objects ?
On the other hand, you might be interested is little piece entitled 'The uses of Text'.
I would certainly appreciate your comments. Let me know more about who you are and what you think about all this - then we might be able to have a two way talk.
Regards Simon Pockley
Jeremy
thanks for your comments.
>Perhaps the thrust of this tale is less about storage technologies and more about access to information and defining relevant information.
Exactly: Preservation and access are intertwined. This is why the WWW is our best bet at the moment for the preservation of this material.
>Important information will always translate into the latest medium and language (The Bible)
This is a great example of how the information did NOT translate. The source material was quite different to the Bible of today. The point I am making is that information does not translate very well from medium to medium and that the irony of the digital era is that just as we a have a medium that allows unlimited dissemination of copies without loss of integrity we find that its usefulness is threatened by the durability of its storage media.
>I will endeavour to give it a better read soon.
I Look forward to hearing from you.
regards Simon
What can I say, other than thank you. I deeply appreciate the time and trouble you have taken to provide me with such comprehensive and thoughtful comment.
Indeed, I was hoping that you would steer my thoughts towards Xanadu. From what I have read and heard you say, I am aware that there are many solutions provided by Xanadu to the problems of digital preservation.
Your corrections have not gone unheeded and the 'paper' has been amended accordingly. I was particularly interested in the range of emulations - I had no idea about this. I have also made a link to Xanadu under the heading of 'noteworthy projects'.
After reading your comments I was immediately faced with the problem of how to go about incorporating your suggestions but at the same time acknowledging their source. I had already created a 'comments' screen for this 'paper'and in most cases I have simply quoted your words, acknowledged you and linked them to this screen (I hope you don't mind me doing this). Of course, the ability to do this is part of the Xanadu ideal. The only complexity (a trivial one) is that your comments have led to an updating of the text which is now the current version. The original only remaining within your email references. I would like to talk more with you about this. It leads me to the distinction which should be made between markup and meta-text. Markup is indeed meta-text but meta-text is not necessarily markup. I believe 'Lest We Forget' is meta-text in the context of The Flight of Ducks. Your comments are meta-text to 'Lest We forget'.
This is certainly a contextual medium.
I will work my way through the Xanadu material. It would be good to use The Flight of Ducks as a Xanadu pilot within Cinemedia.
Thank you again.
Regards Simon
Thank you for your prompt and encouraging reply. I am in awe of the work you are all doing. You are quite right in your reply to point out:
>that our institution has not addressed the issues you raised.
I'm sorry you had the impresssion that I included the National Library in this:
I had hoped that my numerous quotes from the Capturing the Rainbow conference papers would serve to emphasise how advanced I consider the National Library's thinking to be. In the 'Death in Custody' section I do mention that the National Library recognises these issues. I was, in fact trying to provoke discussion about these issues with other institutions including the Victorian State Film Centre/Cinemedia who definitely have not begun to address these issues.
Anyway, I take your point, so it now reads:
'The National Library of Australia is showing the way by recognising that this is more than just a technical problem. It has developed a flexible approach which can evolve with the technology. It is also building the infrastructure needed to link the areas involved in these complex issues.'I am supposed to be in the research area of Cinemedia. So far, my impression is that there are several powerful women manoevering for positions of power and influence in the multimedia arena. I'm afraid it is all about politics, but it does effect what I am doing and it is yet another particularly human issue in digital preservation, so, I will find out what is going on and let you know.Have also ammended 'No Conclusion Only Evolution' to read:
'With the exception of the National Library of Australia, very few, if any, of the issues I have raised in this essay have been addressed by these institutions.'
All part of the evolution.
>this is not a problem that has existed for 30 years.
It is sobering to read Marshall McLuhan (again). 'The Medium is the Massage' was written in 1966. He was amazingly prescient about the way new media renders old media as content and about how we put new media to old uses. Actually, I was trying to point out that many of these issues have been around for ages.
>I believe the Library is still very keen to work with you and "The Flight of Ducks"
Pilot projects are recommended by the Task Force on Archiving of Digital Information. My view of what I am doing is that The Flight of Ducks is very much a pilot project and I need your help.
1. I need feedback from preservation professionals (such as yourselves) on how you percieve what I am doing with this material. This is one of my greatest difficulties. I am working in a critical vacuum. Very few people understand this medium sufficiently to be in a position to give me advice and feedback.
2. There are specific areas such as metadata with which I need your help.
What do you think?
Regards Simon Pockley